“Concertgoers sue Madonna, Live Nation over show starting late”: https://rb.gy/w5c108
Even the Stones take the stage on time these days (well close, anyway).
Concerts are a mature business. Dominated by a few companies that have the infrastructure and management down. You can’t sneak in backstage, never mind sneak in at all. Act out of line and you’ll get tossed. The free-for-all days are gone. It’s organized. From buying the tickets online to the security scan to…
The high ticket prices. This is not a cheap night, going out to drink beer and ogle potential suitees, this is a regimented affair, a chance to see your favorite up close and personal. As for the charisma, the distance of yore…
That’s history. It used to be exotic. A band from across the land, across the sea, was in your own hometown. And it tended to be your own hometown, you didn’t board flights to go to a show, you might drive a few hours, but that was it. So to see David Bowie in person, whew! You pinched yourself that you were in the presence of greatness, of stardom. But today stardom is all over the internet, 24-7. Not only can you see pictures of your heroes, read their words, you can even watch the show you’re going to see online beforehand, on YouTube.
So if you’re trying to titillate the audience, get them ready, foaming at the mouth, you’re out of touch. They’re just waiting for you to go on. It’s not much different from Vegas. Do your show so they can leave and get back to if not gambling, their regular life.
The Stones were legendary for going on stage late. The anticipation was out of control. When they took the stage heads exploded, metaphorically, at least.
And then there was Guns N’ Roses, who couldn’t get it together to get on stage on time. I can’t say it enhanced the experience. Then again, in the interminable time it took for the band to appear cameras roamed the audience and put images up on the big screen. This was the first time I saw a woman lift her shirt and show her t*ts. Shocked me. This was before you could Google boobs. And it didn’t reek of freedom so much as misogyny.
But now Axl Rose is 61. And Madonna is 65. People still want to see them, in droves, but the experience is different. They want to relive their memories. It’s no longer cutting edge. Isn’t Madonna finally doing her greatest hits, to ensure that she can sell tickets at prodigious prices?
Everybody comes down to earth, it’s the songs that remain in heaven.
This was Rock 101. You made the audience wait and you never ever played until the sun went down. It was dark. You know, leather and pool cues. (Well, at least at Altamont.)
Things have changed. Bob Dylan told us that in a song a couple of decades back, and you’ve got to change with the times or be left behind.
It’s one thing to go to a club to see a newbie band. But if the act has traction they’re owned by the audience, you have both a bond and an obligation to the audience. You must respect the audience. If for no other reason than it’s fickle and it’s overwhelmed with choices. They don’t need to see you as much as you think. They love going out, and if you make it too hard they stop.
Now in the old, pre-internet days, this lawsuit would have been big news, all over the MTV News, part of public scuttlebutt. And although I caught the news online yesterday, and can see some more news stories when I Google today, not a single person has e-mailed me about this. Because they don’t care. There are very few acts that have total penetration of society. And even those don’t penetrate as deeply as media purports they do.
You’re in bed with your audience. You must respect people, or they move on.
So what is Madonna achieving by going on late? Illustrating how cool she is? Well, the people are in the building, and at this point it’s a lot of the same people every tour, they’re already in bed with Madonna.
Anticipation? It’s not like the old days, where you stand there absolutely bored, waiting for delivery. No, these days you’re on your phone, surfing, the same way you do at the doctor’s office, waiting for your plane, pissed that no one is on time anymore. Being late doesn’t bond people to you, it makes them resent you. In a world where every moment is precious.
And it’s one thing in New York, which is a late night town, but on a weekday, and outside the Big Apple?
It’s a bad look.
Do I think Live Nation is guilty, should be held liable? No. Everybody in the concert business knows that the act is king, or queen, everything revolves around them, they make all the decisions. Concert promoters are nothing without the acts, and they know it.
This is Madonna’s call.
So what does she lose by going on on time? Well, maybe a bit of anticipation, a bit of fervor. But what does she lose by going on late? She’s angering the people who support her.
This is not the old days, people have multiple choices for concerts, oftentimes on the very same night. They’ve come to see you and you’re treating them like dirt?
I applaud these guys for suing. And, I hope they don’t settle, not for a while anyway, at least not without a public mea culpa from Madonna. Oh, that will never happen, the promoter takes the heat, Live Nation will deliver the mea culpa and Madonna will take the stage closer to on time.
It’s not 1984 anymore. As big as you think Taylor Swift is, Madonna was much bigger. Because she was all over MTV and radio when everybody was watching MTV and listening to the radio. Everybody knew “Like a Virgin.” “Like a Prayer’s” video debut was an event.
But those days are through, nobody has that kind of mindshare anymore. The cheese has moved and Madonna hasn’t moved with it.
The greats adjust to change.
If the public is paying all that money to see you, much more in adjusted dollars than they did in 1984, there’s a covenant that they will have a professional experience. Good lights and sound. Respect.
It’s not rock and roll anymore, it’s show business.
It could be rock and roll once again, but then someone would have to break all the rules and they don’t want to, because they can’t turn down all that money, they want the corporate cash, they want the media love, they don’t want to risk marginality. But everything new and different worth paying attention to is outside and pooh-poohed, it challenges our beliefs, our societal mores. And that’s what Madonna did. But that was forty years ago. Today if you kill somebody you’re only in the news for a day. Shoot up a school and it might be a bit longer, a week. Some “artist” taking a stand? Most people are not going to know about it. And then there are others who are going to say grow up, to stop being an adolescent.
You can be old and push boundaries, test limits. But our classic rockers have blinked. They get plastic surgery, they wear wigs, to try and remind us of what once was. But that was not the deal in rock and roll. If anything, you were supposed to live fast and die hard, soon. But if you lived, you’ve got to evolve.
So most people don’t know Madonna is taking the stage so late, most people don’t care what she’s doing whatsoever, it’s a small subset of the public.
And most people are not paying attention to new music, it’s too overwhelming, incomprehensible, and the industry does nothing to combat this.
So some old woman (and she is a woman, this is not sexist, it can be a man too) goes out and performs ancient hits to those running on fumes, i.e. memories. Kudos that anybody wants to go. But don’t tell me it’s a cultural event. Don’t ask me to care. And when I find out you’re going on so late… I might still go, but most people will not.
Hell, Jamie Lee Curtis got more ink asking old rockers to do matinees!
So much has changed. When was the last time you had car trouble? Even back in ’84 people wouldn’t show up because their car wouldn’t start.
Remember when you couldn’t get ahold of people? Remember when answering machines were a breakthrough?
Remember when the food at the arena was awful?
You can’t get away with that anymore, and you can’t get away with going on hours late either. It’s a losing proposition. You’re angering your fans, and they’re the ones supporting you.
Time to wake up.
Responses from Bob’s readers. Please note, these comments are not edited for grammar or content and do not necessarily reflect the views of CelebrityAccess or its staff.
GREAT post..truer words were never spoken.
I am backstage caterer and artist/tour hospitality provider….Chase Center, Oracle, etc so I see things up close and personal. It’s a BUSINESS with timelines and deliverables. Hard core, for real.
For instance, if my crew is 5 minutes late on a union coffee break, there may be a fine attached and a “Whole Lotta Whining” from the locals. I have never been late.
In every venue dining room, affectionately or sometimes snidely called “Catering” (our food is great), there is a “to the second” run of show posted on all four walls and doors. Almost always, it goes exactly as planned.
I was lucky enough to make my way into industry late in life so I never knew the old days of chaos and high drama. Sounds fun. But these days, it is all professionalism and competence. Don’t be late.
Stacy Scott
_________________________________
2 hours late…lawsuit? The last Lauryn Hill concert I promoted she was still in the hotel at that time. After 3 hours I had to make some refunds. But no lawsuit.
I don’t know why I’m laughing, but my whole team still gets a kick out of it.
Tom Gribbin
_________________________________
It comes down to respect. Time is the one thing we will never get back.
30 minutes late? People will resent, but will forgive if it’s a one off. Two or three hours late; it’s an insult. And what about the people staffing the show? Again, so insulting.
Audrey Fix Schaefer
_________________________________
It should be noted, when I was in the ‘ game’ and G ‘n’ R were touring and Mr Rose was late every show the band got together and all agreed, band would be on time so Axle had to pay for the over run, when load out runs over the time allocated, normally 1am it could cost anywhere from 50 to 100 Grand depending if it was Teamsters or local help, this is the reason G ‘n’ R did the Monster tour with Metallica cause at the end of the G ‘n’ R tour Axle wanted to spend some of his money only to find out he was pretty broke and probably didn’t help the vibe in the camp.
I would think it’s pretty much the same today, your show goes into overtime you pay the price.
AS ya do, appreciate the emails
Ta
Neil Watson
Ireland
_________________________________
The worst example of this I’ve seen in a while was the Lauryn Hill/Fugees Miseducation disaster that came through Vancouver recently. Known for being ‘late’, Lauryn Hill was so late that the opening ‘DJ’ had to reassure the audience that Lauryn was “in the building, and would be taking the stage”. Not to worry.
Her show was lame. She fought imaginary monitor issues all night to mask her weakened voice and insecurity. I’ve done enough live sound to know a mask when I see one.
Pras couldn’t make it through the border so the ‘Fugees’ portion was Lauryn and Wyclef. I’m not a huge Wyclef fan but I will say that when he took the stage the show locked up and was 1,000% more professional.
What a letdown. My wife and I were excited to tap into the nostalgia and are huge fans of the Miseducation album, we almost left early.
Cheers,
Mike.
_________________________________
Surprised you didn’t bring up the Mother of all abusively late artists, Lauryn Hill. She typically holds her “fans” hostage for 3-4 hours. I have friends that have played with her and quit because of this malignant narcissism.
What you also didn’t mention is that every hour one of these artists are late are an extra hour the crews and musicians don’t get to sleep, they still have to show up the same time the next day! Like the crews don’t work hard enough….this disgusts me.
And yes, I think Live Nation is also culpable-there should be a penalty in ALL of their contracts that any delays past one hour takes X amount out of the artist’s pocket. They are putting the artist over the fans. A fatal mistake that has been repeated through history. Greed kills!
What pisses me off is these slackers make us who respect our fans look bad. Like it’s not hard enough being a musician or crew member.
My dad was a musician and always told me “dress great and show up on time.”
CJ Vanston
_________________________________
Even though you’re a music-centric Blog, no conversation about stage tardiness should exclude the Greatest Ever Magician – David Copperfield.
Years of 5 minutes 10 min 15-20 30 minutes late. Audience chants, etc. Always multi-show days which had this domino effect, of course, turning the theater, then Arenas.
One day during a 3, even 4 show per day weekend in Germany, I pre-show briefed him on the 6-7 thousand per show audiences to come for the sequential run of daily shows.
“Maybe we can get started 10 minutes or so latest, blah blah.” David was sitting there with Claudia Schiffer and they looked at me blankly, “Why are you telling me this?”
“Well the people arre paying incredibly (new to me) $100++ equivalent ticket prices and I think you should know.” Nothing.
Then he’d go out on stage and just Kill. He could give a good f*ck.
We parted ways soon thereafter. One of our many back n forth moments of employment over many decades.
But he is the Best at his Art.
Bob Cayne
_________________________________
You what I love? When you go see Bob Dylan now, if the ticket says Show Time is 7:30…Show Time is 7:30 SHARP. The Show STARTS whether you’re in your seat or not. Bob’s got a year of other shows stretching out ahead of him, so he’s not waiting. And I think when I went to two shows at the Beacon a couple years ago we were back out on the street by 9pm maybe 9:30. 17 songs. I was HOME by 10pm and had seen an excellent, professionally presented live rock and roll show by Bob and His Band. BRILLIANT. More power to him. All acts should adopt this concert philosophy.
Jason Cilo
_________________________________
She pulled that sh*t at the Brooklyn Academy of Music in 2019. BAM is right near Barclay’s, but it’s a 2,000 seat “opera house” as opposed to a basketball/hockey arena.
Tix were pricey, and she came out real late. But, I have to say it was a great show (different than concert); a real (almost avant garde) production. I was never a big fan of her music, but I have to say I dug the performance.
But, I figured she pulled the hours late thing because we were at BAM in hipper than hip Brooklyn (I’m a native pre-hipster Brooklynite). Not cool that this is her M.O. everywhere.
Hey, by the way, your Tony Visconti and John Scher podcasts were mesmerizing!
Keep ‘em coming!
Jeff Douglas
_________________________________
Nearly all major venues have show curfew times, dictated by excessive labor costs for overtime, i.e. after 11 PM. Some venues charge penalties to artists who aren’t finished by 11 PM. Significant penalties. That can grow minute by minute after 11 PM.
Axl Rose didn’t care, at Guns N Roses shows back in the day. When he toured with AC/DC, Angus called the shots and they went on every night on time. Since then, Axl’s gotten better.
Those costs can be enormous. Most artists don’t want to incur those costs.
Toby Mamis
_________________________________
Also in the old days, you could imagine a rock star being late because they were out of control, doing lines, getting over a hangover, in the dressing room having a fivesome, or even still sleeping from the previous night’s debauchery. You could be amused by it and wish you were them.
But now it’s more likely their yoga/nutritionist/fitness coach was running late. Or that they were too busy realigning their chakras to float out on stage.
Cha-cha-cha-cha-changes.
Paul Gigante
_________________________________
Bands should realize that a half hour is enough time for excitement to build. If the show is at 8 o’clock I arrive in my seat at 7.30 and the lights go down at 8 and preferably the first few notes are played in the dark then boom the stage lights up and off we go. That’s the way it should always go. If I have to sit for an hour or two in some cases then my inclination is to rush the stage and throat punch the singer to the point he may never be able to sing again, not that I would ever do that but one can dream.
It seems to be an American thing where they are incapable of starting things on time. I’ve watched I don’t know how many news conferences in the last 4 years and not one, not one has started when they said they would. How fucking hard is that to do?
Greg Stroh
_________________________________
I went to see Sly and the Family Stone… notoriously for being late.
An hour and a half it took…
BTW.. the show was phenomenal.
Jeff Laufer
_________________________________
Man, you are right, Bob, in saying that concerts are a mature business. I just turned 67, and most of the shows I see now are at festivals which are run like the Swiss train system, and small club shows featuring up-and-coming acts and some nostalgia acts. Generally, they are run on time. Madonna may think the biggest spotlight still shines on her, but she is a nostalgia act, and people who go to see nostalgia acts are older folks expecting things to be “as advertised”. I love my fellow Michigander, Madonna, but she should respect her audience.
Ross Field
_________________________________
We were just at dinner. I told my wife about your letter. She said… Madonna is on tour? I had no idea.
Mission accomplished.
Marty Winsch
_________________________________
Right On,as we would say in my day. I hope one day Madonna pisses off enough people that they are onl wiling to see her concert on HBO Max
What disrespect on her part…..
Fern Cohen
_________________________________
I’m glad those 2 are suing. You could offer me free tickets to see Madonna and I’d pass. Sure, she had hits back in the day, but she seems like a cartoon trying to be young. I’d rather see Weyes Blood or Laufey at a small venue than Madonna at a stadium.
Turk
_________________________________
I was a roadie in the days when there was only one of me and some of my worse memories are trying to corral band members to get them on stage on time.. I worked for blues and R&B based bands with horn sections and multiple keyboards so there was a lot of band to gather.
And Jamie Lee is one of the nicest people I’ve ever known.
Phil Brown
_________________________________
Great piece Bob. I couldn’t agree with you more.
Kyle JF
_________________________________
Bad look for Madonna, and I agree with everything you said until “I applaud these guys for suing.” There are better forums to solve this problem – reviews, articles, social media rants. I don’t see how a lawsuit helps – what precedence does this set for artists? The only people who win here are the lawyers. Let the fans speak their mind and Madonna can choose to listen or not.
Todd Olsen
_________________________________
Bitch, she’s Madonna.
She was one hour late in Copenhagen. When I last saw her in Paris, her back was screwed and we ended up waiting in the theatre (boiling) two or three hours. It’s not raw power, it’s a show. So maybe she should have started on time. But to me, that has zero importance afterwards if the show is great. And this one was.
I’ve been to around 25-50 gigs a year of all sorts since Wings in 1972, I don’t mind. If I go to a concert or a play, even a movie, everything else ceases to exist. Even when it is my job to be there, even if I’ve already seen the artist live 30 times, even if don’t like the artist – even if afterwards it turns out it was all just hot air.
It’s always a purely divine moment of artistry and human interaction*.
In cellars, clubs, arenas, festivals, waiting an extra hour is therefore a bonus, as far I’m concerned.
Sorry, not festivals. I hate to miss another concert on the field just because someone overslept or is too drunk. But that’s another story and very rarely happens these days.
I realise gigs is just popcorn, games or streaming for people like this. They may be right, well from their perspective of course they are. But the magic is not in sight there for them and that kind of makes me sad. I’m just thankful that I can feel the divinity of a performance. And that my daughters and their friends can. It’s made my life so much better, including the waiting.
So, totally with the lady in question.
The suers should stick to the twilight of their smartphones.
Martin Theander
Malmö
* (excluding the non-listening Roger Waters, preaching brutally to his choir while showing it down or throats these days)
_________________________________
Bob, this is kind of old news for Madonna fans. Even seven years ago arguably “more in her prime” Abs heyday, she did the same thing; we had our daughter and a friend with us at this special treat for them in San Jose at the Shark Tank in great seats.
Sure enough the tickets said 8:30 start, but after a strange opening act with a DJ and a very long gap the girls were falling asleep by the 10:30-ish start time that did, like this one, run late into the wee hours.
She’s Madonna. Get over it. ;)))
Keep up the great work.
Cheers,
Matt Weeks
_________________________________
The plaintiffs are right and should get some compensation…. They didn’t get the show they paid for.
Ron Eisenberg
_________________________________
One sentence summed this meshugah mess, “You must respect the audience.” I have been a fan of Madonna’s since she first burst onto the scene. I just finished reading the Madonna biography (over 1,000 pages) and it was a pretty fair review of her life, interspersed with pretty informative historical information surrounding her growth and development as an artist. She is a generally decent human being, so that she makes her fans wait like this is anti-thetical to that kindness and decency.
I have seen Madonna perform ONCE in my lifetime and swore I would never see her again because, I am a timely person that respects other people’s time. The stories about her late appearances onto the stage was enough to turn me off.
It’s a bummer, I know, I have precluded myself from seeing her live, but my time is just as important as Madonna’s.
Khila Khani
_________________________________
I’m a Madonna fan, especially of the old stuff but my interest peaked around the early 90’s. I thought after her last tour (she was two hours late to her 2019 Chicago dates – on a weeknight!) she might do more of her hits the next time. But I’m surprised more isn’t being made about her not bringing a live band with her – relying mostly on tapes instrumentally. In the NYT review, that didn’t come up until around paragraph fifteen. I’m sorry M – instant dealbreaker for me.
Douglas Trapasso
_________________________________
Sadly as iconic as she is, she needs to run a tighter show. Her audience is a combination of Gen X and Millennials who’ve paid top dollar to see her which one has to assume that includes money on a babysitter for the night out during the week.
Waiting two hours to see Madonna, no thanks.
Gary Marella
_________________________________
Your points are valid Bob, but I feel like you’ve left out one key element.
Why should a fan be entitled to sue an artist for going on late? You can leave. Complain to the promoter that they promoted a said time and you need to get home, blah blah… If you aren’t too drunk to talk to someone in charge, and you are savvy enough to find a lawyer to take your frivolous case, I’m sure you’re smart enough to get a refund. And if you lose money on babysitters or whatever else, that’s a cost of playing the game. I bought two sets of tickets to the latest Eagles shows at the Forum – despite sounding amazing, the show was boring and uninspired. So much so, I sold my eighth row tickets for the second show at a loss rather than sit through it again. I’m not suing the Eagles because I wished their show was better. I just value my time, and I’d rather take the financial hit than go again. If Madonna went onstage too late, go home. I don’t think she chained everyone to their seats.
Hate the artist, bitch online, be a keyboard warrior for how the artist epitomizes everything wrong with the world and ruined your life. But a lawsuit? You went on late and I’m tired at work, so I’m suing you… Come on. Grow a set. We live in a lawsuit happy world, and it’s out of control. Now that I know I can sue an artist for going on late, can I sue them for making an album I paid for and don’t like? When some lascivious story comes out and I find out fifteen years later that said artist (allegedly) isn’t the person I thought they were/are, can I sue them for making me like them under false pretenses?
When I show up on time for a doctor’s appointment, can I sue the doctor if they see me late? Even better, can I sue the person that showed up late for their doctor’s appointment, causing the doctor to run late and making my appointment late, thus throwing the rest of my day off?
Everything you said is true, but where do we draw the line. This lawsuit is absurd.
PAUL GARGANO
_________________________________
I would ave loved to see her again. Madonna at her best is the epitome of pop. Her music and show sparkle, titillate and excite. I grew up with her music and really love some of it.
But-
Cut it out. Concerts are more expensive than ever and frankly that ticket is kind of a contract. If I’m paying all that money to see a show at 8:30 on Monday and you start at 10:15 (this happened in Boston), you’ve broken the contract. I heard about her late starts and saw those prices and easily decided that my memories of her past shows would do. And this is it for me lately. I’d love to See Sarah MacLachlan too – but her tickets are fetching ridiculous prices at a medium sized outdoor venue. Nope.
My days of seeing multiple shows of the same artist are over. I’m not paying the crazy prices and I’m not staying out till 1a to get my moneys worth.
Marc McDonald
_________________________________
– to illustrate your Madonna reality check and difference between rock n roll and show business then and now, here’s one you may appreciate.
It was New York. Summer of 1971. I was 16 and living in Nassau County. A friend came by with some weed. In a teenage haze, with ‘no particular place to go’ we thought to ride over to Forest Hills Stadium in the afternoon and sniff out The Who show scheduled for that evening. We arrived ‘pre’ sound check and walked right up to the stage. With nobody but the stage crews around, we made our way to the steps that led to the stage. Patti Labelle’s piano tech was tuning the piano and we walked up looking out over the stadium grounds. 16 years old and we couldn’t believe our luck! Chip Monck was testing the monitor board and treated us like we belonged there??
3 hours later, we’re still hanging by the stage steps. Patti Labelle had finished her set 45 minutes ago, the house lights dimmed, and to my left I noticed a group of guys laughing and talking while a flashlight led the way walking toward us…….
THE WHO TOOK THE STAGE! We watched the show like church mice next to Chip Monck….The ROCK N ROLL GODS WERE WITH US!…but my friend said it was the smoke.
Steve Chrismar
_________________________________
This is what we get. Having a computer with 24/7 news and info at our fingertips has its pros and cons. Nothing makes news and stays relevant anymore. We just don’t have the BANDWIDTH for it. The one person who’s been in the news for the last 8 years consistently is Trump. And it’s because he was famous already and became more so by being president. But music isn’t what it used to be. I could find you 300 Taylor Swifts in Nashville alone right now. Can you find me another LeBron James?
Just Danny Jay
_________________________________
I read your piece on the Madonna lawsuit.
I was, as always, impressed with your insight.
However, there was one sentence that caught my eye.
You say, ” It’s not rock and roll anymore, it’s show business.”
With the greatest of respect, Bob, it was always show business.
From Elvis to Dylan to the Stones to Bruce, it was always show business!
With best wishes,
Terry Ellis
